Dynamic Compression Ratio CHART
#1
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2020 C6 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16,'17,'18-'19-'20-'21-'22
Dynamic Compression Ratio CHART
NEW: see Post # 28 on page two of this thread for the LIVE SPREADSHEET. You don't have to use the lousy .JPG at the bottom of this post.
___________________________________
This C6 Tech Forum is like a graduate education in performance piston engines. For example, I have learned that Dynamic Compression Ratio (DCR) is the way to look at the interplay between cylinder heads and camshafts. The consensus (from SpinMonster, of course!) is that with a tight quench (0.030" or so) the heads for the LS2 (and LS3) can run up to 8.7 to 1 DCR on pump (93 octane) gasoline.
The major variables in computing DCR are the position of the piston in the cylinder at intake valve CLOSURE (defined as 0.004" tappet lift or 0.006" valve lift), expressed in degrees after bottom dead center (ABDC), and the total combustion chamber volume, which can be computed from the static compression ratio (SCR). The position of the piston as a function of crank angle is influenced by the ratio of connecting rod length to crankpin stroke.
Once I got this all figured out (with just high school algebra and trigonometry ) I put it into a spreadsheet with the major variables being Theta (intake valve closure ABDC) and static compression ratio. I also included cells to put in the stroke and rod length for the proper trigonometric correction factor.
The stock static compression ratio for the stock LS2 is 10.9 to 1, and the stock LS2 cam closes the intake valve (0.006" off the seat) at 68 degrees ABDC. The attached chart (click on it to see it full size, I doubt you can read the thumbnail ) shows that the stock DCR is 8.45 to 1.
The pink diagonal cells show where you need to be to stay near or just below a DCR of 8.7. Theta is not always listed on cam cards, but if you have the duration at 0.050" and the duration at 0.006" (valve), subtract them, and add one-half the difference to the listed (or computed) Intake Valve Closing at 0.050". For the stock LS2, the intake duration (at 0.050") is 204 degrees, and the intake closing is at 36 deg. ABDC. The duration at 0.006" is 268 degrees, so 1/2 the difference is 32 deg., so the "real" intake valve closure is 34 deg. + 32 deg. = 68 deg. ABDC.
If you want to put this chart into your own spreadsheet, the basic equation is shown at the top of the chart for the first cell, E11. Once you get it typed in, and get the right result in the cell, just copy that formula to all the other cells. The formula references cell A1, which is just PI/180, or 0.0174533, and cell V4, which is the square of the ratio of rod length to one-half the stroke. The example I used, 3.6" stroke and 6" rod length, is not exact for the LS2, but is close enough for making these calculations. Input your own specifications for absolute accuracy.
Feel free to PM if you have any questions, or find any inaccuracies that would be significant to using this chart.
___________________________________
This C6 Tech Forum is like a graduate education in performance piston engines. For example, I have learned that Dynamic Compression Ratio (DCR) is the way to look at the interplay between cylinder heads and camshafts. The consensus (from SpinMonster, of course!) is that with a tight quench (0.030" or so) the heads for the LS2 (and LS3) can run up to 8.7 to 1 DCR on pump (93 octane) gasoline.
The major variables in computing DCR are the position of the piston in the cylinder at intake valve CLOSURE (defined as 0.004" tappet lift or 0.006" valve lift), expressed in degrees after bottom dead center (ABDC), and the total combustion chamber volume, which can be computed from the static compression ratio (SCR). The position of the piston as a function of crank angle is influenced by the ratio of connecting rod length to crankpin stroke.
Once I got this all figured out (with just high school algebra and trigonometry ) I put it into a spreadsheet with the major variables being Theta (intake valve closure ABDC) and static compression ratio. I also included cells to put in the stroke and rod length for the proper trigonometric correction factor.
The stock static compression ratio for the stock LS2 is 10.9 to 1, and the stock LS2 cam closes the intake valve (0.006" off the seat) at 68 degrees ABDC. The attached chart (click on it to see it full size, I doubt you can read the thumbnail ) shows that the stock DCR is 8.45 to 1.
The pink diagonal cells show where you need to be to stay near or just below a DCR of 8.7. Theta is not always listed on cam cards, but if you have the duration at 0.050" and the duration at 0.006" (valve), subtract them, and add one-half the difference to the listed (or computed) Intake Valve Closing at 0.050". For the stock LS2, the intake duration (at 0.050") is 204 degrees, and the intake closing is at 36 deg. ABDC. The duration at 0.006" is 268 degrees, so 1/2 the difference is 32 deg., so the "real" intake valve closure is 34 deg. + 32 deg. = 68 deg. ABDC.
If you want to put this chart into your own spreadsheet, the basic equation is shown at the top of the chart for the first cell, E11. Once you get it typed in, and get the right result in the cell, just copy that formula to all the other cells. The formula references cell A1, which is just PI/180, or 0.0174533, and cell V4, which is the square of the ratio of rod length to one-half the stroke. The example I used, 3.6" stroke and 6" rod length, is not exact for the LS2, but is close enough for making these calculations. Input your own specifications for absolute accuracy.
Feel free to PM if you have any questions, or find any inaccuracies that would be significant to using this chart.
Last edited by The Clevite Kid; 10-29-2008 at 04:03 PM. Reason: Add news w.r.t. live spreadsheet in Post # 28
#2
Safety Car
Very interesting...I always hated the lack of TQ off idle with more cam so bumping the compression up to the max safe level is really good to be able to quantify what is generally known common sense wise, but is generally somewhat more of a general trial and error sort of thing to guess how much cam to run.
volumetric eff and bmep may still get too high at tq peak, but that's what tuning is for I guess.
volumetric eff and bmep may still get too high at tq peak, but that's what tuning is for I guess.
#4
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If the connecting rod did NOT lean over during the stroke, (see dotted blue line to the right of the cylinder) the piston would actually be somewhat higher in the cylinder (dotted green line) by a value I call omega. The formula in the spreadsheet in my OP takes this into account and computes omega as a function of theta, and of the ratio of the rod length to the stroke of the crankpin.
Note that if we call the angle between the actual connecting rod and the straight line between the main bearing and the wrist pin beta, then
L*sin(beta) = (stroke/2)*sin(theta)
and you can use Pythagoras' Theorem to find omega as a function of theta.
Since omega always lowers the piston compared to the straight-rod scenario, the DCR is increased due to this affect. Ignoring it would underestimate the TRUE DCR and could lead to detonation and all its nasty consequences.
There will be a quiz on Monday .
#5
Tech Contributor
Great info! Haven't seen that kind of math since I moved to Miami, you must not be from around here! LOL.
Would you mind sending me the spreadsheet to Joegut at Gmail dot com?
By the way we are at Countyline Dragway most Saturday nights and will be at the new Moroso on Nov 9. Hope to meet you one of these days.
Would you mind sending me the spreadsheet to Joegut at Gmail dot com?
By the way we are at Countyline Dragway most Saturday nights and will be at the new Moroso on Nov 9. Hope to meet you one of these days.
#6
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Oops - - -
OK, I found the first typo in the chart - in shrinking it down I left out the row for Theta = 80 degrees. Here is the corrected chart.
And you guessed right, I did not learn math and physics in Miami . . . . .
Anyone else who wants a copy of the live EXCEL spreadsheet, just drop me a PM
And you guessed right, I did not learn math and physics in Miami . . . . .
Anyone else who wants a copy of the live EXCEL spreadsheet, just drop me a PM
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St. Jude Donor '08-'09
Here a good equation that helps to understand the rod length and crank offset relationship.
s = o cos a + SQRT(r^2 - o^2 sin^2 a)
s = distance between crank axis and wrist pin
o = crankhaft offset
a = crankhaft angle
r = connecting rod length
s = o cos a + SQRT(r^2 - o^2 sin^2 a)
s = distance between crank axis and wrist pin
o = crankhaft offset
a = crankhaft angle
r = connecting rod length
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St. Jude Donor '08-'09
This is good stuff. I was wondering how to define dynamic compression because my textbook doesn't cover it.
Compression ratio is define as the ratio of volume between TDC and BDC or
Rc = Vbdc / Vtdc
I'm trying to wrap my head around your definition. Did I read it right that the stock valve timing closes the intake valve after the piston reaches the bottom and is on the way up during the compression stroke? Is that right?
Compression ratio is define as the ratio of volume between TDC and BDC or
Rc = Vbdc / Vtdc
I'm trying to wrap my head around your definition. Did I read it right that the stock valve timing closes the intake valve after the piston reaches the bottom and is on the way up during the compression stroke? Is that right?
#9
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2020 C6 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
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This is good stuff. I was wondering how to define dynamic compression because my textbook doesn't cover it.
Compression ratio is define as the ratio of volume between TDC and BDC or
Rc = Vbdc / Vtdc
I'm trying to wrap my head around your definition. Did I read it right that the stock valve timing closes the intake valve after the piston reaches the bottom and is on the way up during the compression stroke? Is that right?
Compression ratio is define as the ratio of volume between TDC and BDC or
Rc = Vbdc / Vtdc
I'm trying to wrap my head around your definition. Did I read it right that the stock valve timing closes the intake valve after the piston reaches the bottom and is on the way up during the compression stroke? Is that right?
Correct, to take advantage of the inertia in the incoming air column at speed, the intake valve closes AFTER bottom dead center, during the compression stroke, by quite a bit.
The definition of Dynamic Compression Ratio is similar to the definition for static compression ratio:
DCR = (Volume when intake valve "closes") / Vtdc
And "closes" means when the valve is 0.006" off its seat, which is what most cam grinders use for "Advertised duration".
Like I said in the OP, this Forum is like a graduate course in engine performance, so it is more advanced than your textbook.
#10
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If you deconvolute the EXCEL formula at the top of my figure, you will see that it contains the mathematical equivalent of the formula from your textbook. I remembered seeing this equation years ago, but it was more fun to sit beside my swimming pool with a cup of coffee and a tablet and derive the equation for myself. Yes, I am a NERD, and proud of it . . . . .
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#11
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St. Jude Donor '08-'09
Correct, to take advantage of the inertia in the incoming air column at speed, the intake valve closes AFTER bottom dead center, during the compression stroke, by quite a bit.
The definition of Dynamic Compression Ratio is similar to the definition for static compression ratio:
DCR = (Volume when intake valve "closes") / Vtdc
And "closes" means when the valve is 0.006" off its seat, which is what most cam grinders use for "Advertised duration".
Like I said in the OP, this Forum is like a graduate course in engine performance, so it is more advanced than your textbook.
The definition of Dynamic Compression Ratio is similar to the definition for static compression ratio:
DCR = (Volume when intake valve "closes") / Vtdc
And "closes" means when the valve is 0.006" off its seat, which is what most cam grinders use for "Advertised duration".
Like I said in the OP, this Forum is like a graduate course in engine performance, so it is more advanced than your textbook.
#12
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St. Jude Donor '08-'09
If you deconvolute the EXCEL formula at the top of my figure, you will see that it contains the mathematical equivalent of the formula from your textbook. I remembered seeing this equation years ago, but it was more fun to sit beside my swimming pool with a cup of coffee and a tablet and derive the equation for myself. Yes, I am a NERD, and proud of it . . . . .
#13
Tech Contributor
Keep in mind that cylinder pressures fall when you go up in altitude and you will likely have no issue with a given set-up tuned to 93 octane at sea level then run 91 at 1 mile up.
#14
The major variables in computing DCR are the position of the piston in the cylinder at intake valve CLOSURE (defined as 0.004" tappet lift or 0.006" valve lift), expressed in degrees after bottom dead center (ABDC), and the total combustion chamber volume, which can be computed from the static compression ratio (SCR).
Very interesting...I always hated the lack of TQ off idle with more cam so bumping the compression up to the max safe level is really good to be able to quantify what is generally known common sense wise, but is generally somewhat more of a general trial and error sort of thing to guess how much cam to run.
volumetric eff and bmep may still get too high at tq peak, but that's what tuning is for I guess.
volumetric eff and bmep may still get too high at tq peak, but that's what tuning is for I guess.
Good job here guys!
#15
Safety Car
Excellent information and spreadsheet, Lee! Thanks for taking the time to share it. I wish I was as fluent in math as you guys are. I am beginning to think that if we could put Lee, Guy, Richard, and Ben all in one place, we might have a new version of nucleosynthesis.
#16
Tech Contributor
Well shoot. Here I am on a Sunny Sunday morn, kids watching Cars (Lightning McQueen, for the 10,000 time) and a fresh cup of coffee..ready to calc the DCR of my G5x3.
But I don't know my cam's duration at .050, or .006, let alone the valve closing at .050!
As per Clevite's text above, Theta is not always listed on cam cards, but if you have the duration at 0.050" and the duration at 0.006" (valve), subtract them, and add one-half the difference to the listed (or computed) Intake Valve Closing at 0.050"
. But I don't know my cam's duration at .050, or .006, let alone the valve closing at .050!
Last edited by Joe_G; 10-26-2008 at 09:46 AM.
#17
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Well shoot. Here I am on a Sunny Sunday morn, kids watching Cars (Lightning McQueen, for the 10,000 time) and a fresh cup of coffee..ready to calc the DCR of my G5x3.
But I don't know my cam's duration at .050, or .006, let alone the valve closing at .050!
As per Clevite's text above, Theta is not always listed on cam cards, but if you have the duration at 0.050" and the duration at 0.006" (valve), subtract them, and add one-half the difference to the listed (or computed) Intake Valve Closing at 0.050"
. But I don't know my cam's duration at .050, or .006, let alone the valve closing at .050!
Sounds like a good excuse to put a degree wheel on your crankshaft and a dial indicator on your #1 intake rocker arm - after all you have already seen Lighting McQueen 9,999 times.
I think someone you know has the specs on the cam, and that person might be willing to tell you the intake valve closing point at 0.006" tappet lift (since your cam is ground by COMP to LG specs). If you ask really politely, LG might be willing to part with that ONE piece of data on their proprietary cam.
You could also check LS1TECH.com - someone may have put this cam on a Cam Doctor.
#18
Tech Contributor
Sounds like a good excuse to put a degree wheel on your crankshaft and a dial indicator on your #1 intake rocker arm - after all you have already seen Lighting McQueen 9,999 times.
I think someone you know has the specs on the cam, and that person might be willing to tell you the intake valve closing point at 0.006" tappet lift (since your cam is ground by COMP to LG specs). If you ask really politely, LG might be willing to part with that ONE piece of data on their proprietary cam.
You could also check LS1TECH.com - someone may have put this cam on a Cam Doctor.
I think someone you know has the specs on the cam, and that person might be willing to tell you the intake valve closing point at 0.006" tappet lift (since your cam is ground by COMP to LG specs). If you ask really politely, LG might be willing to part with that ONE piece of data on their proprietary cam.
You could also check LS1TECH.com - someone may have put this cam on a Cam Doctor.
LOL right you are! I will do a bit of searching and perhaps someone will chime in and help me.
Though I coincidentally DID buy a dial indicator yesterday (on sale at Harbor Freight, picked up a digital micrometer too), pulling a valve cover isn't my idea of fun in the morning. That needs to be done in the evening...I don't like to get oily without beer nearby.
So I'll search and wait before cracking a valve cover.
BTW and sorry for the OT, but been doing a lot of research on the Livernois Stg. 2 heads you are getting...they are really looking promising from a performance/$ standpoint. I think they will be a great compliment to my SPINFAST. I'm saving my nickels.